Witanagemot English Free Press
It may or may not have reached you but the Witanagemot Club, for some strange reason, now wants to call itself The English Free Press. Well, fine, if that’s what our lads and lasses want.
Our main thrust, as you’d imagine, is to resolve the West Lothian question and the Barnett Formula so that the English aren’t disadvantaged in the light of the independence of those whom England subsidizes. The other major policy thrust is to push for an English Parliament.
I am a member of that group and wrote on the forum not long ago that we cannot realize any of those goals while we still won’t recognize that the N1 action of anyone English is to get out of the EU. To do that, we need a referendum. To get that referendum, the English need a mechanism to get to MPs and PPCs to pressure them to give us a referendum.
One of the best ways to put this pressure on is to follow the suggestions outlined by the Albion Alliance and by doing that, we run a chance of getting that referendum.
Why must England leave the EU?
The seat of power is no longer Westminster and the EU now deals with this [former] country of ours on a piecemeal basis, region by region. This leaves Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland intact but breaks up England into 9 regions, funded from Brussels.
This is even before we look at how the former England is subsidizing the poor European nations, let alone the immigration question and how its foreign policy is no at the beckand call of an unelected EU appointee. There can simply be no English Parliament if there is no England … and post Irish Lisbon 2, there is no England.
Therefore, one would expect the former Witanagemot Club to get right behind the push for a referendum on the EU but not a bit of it. There was complete silence on it until Toque himself came in to answer me and said that while the EU was one of the many questions, it didn’t come under the purview of the Witanagemot Club and anyway, they’d been trying for years.
With all due respect to the English Nationalists – Albion Alliance has a mechanism in operation, receiving MP and PPC responses and/or attacks and headway is being made. We would get a lot further if this thing was not so parochial and everyone got behind it together, forgetting agendas and all other extraneous things in order to do the one thing which matters first – get the hell out of the EU.
How? By having a referendum.
Why would people who wish to see an English Parliament not get behind something which would help that goal along? Namely, via an EU Referendum? If such a referendum saw us out, then the other home nations would stay devolved, England would go its own way and there you are – one English Parliament.
Filed under: Politics & economics
James, I agree that the EU question is fundamental, but it’s a bit chicken and egg: you say if we get a referendum, an English parliament would (probably, possibly) result from it; I would say that if we got an EP, we’d certainly get a referendum on EU membership, if only in / for England.
The referendum that the Albion Alliance campaigns for is a UK-wide one, which is understandable given that you’re targeting UK MPs and parliamentary candidates. But there’s no guarantee that, even if the English people voted for Britain to leave the EU, but the other British nations voted to remain in the EU, resulting in a UK majority in favour of the status quo, England’s will would be separately acknowledged and enacted. In other words, it would be taken as a ‘yes’ vote even if England voted ‘no’ – now that sounds familiar!
I also find it rather confusing that on this website, you have a map of England (minus Cornwall) prefacing the present post, whereas on the Albion Alliance website it’s a map of the British Isles.
My own view is that England must first be recognised as a sovereign nation with the right to determine its own form of government. From that recognition would then flow both a referendum on an English parliament and a separate English referendum on EU membership, with possibly – in those circumstances – the EU vote preceding the vote on an EP, although the mechanisms for agreeing to it and organising it are a bit unclear without an EP.
So if I was going to be sign up to a campaign pledge, it would be to persuade English MPs to recognise the existence of England as a sovereign nation, and to put the interests of that country (England, not Britain) before narrow party interest. I wonder how many, or few, positive responses you’d get.
The map. We are doing it for different reasons. This post is my own post from my own point of view and that is English nationalist. Others believe in Britain. Albion Alliance can’t take a stance one way or the other because it is committed to getting a referendum and giving us a mechanism for getting it – a small, small chance to get MPs to listen to us. So yes, it’s true that the AA map is of Britain.
The home countries are not going to vote to rejoin England but will vote for a Barnett Formula. If we can only get the EU off our backs, it is highly unlikely the home countries will follow us back to Westminster – they now have their own parliaments.
Look at it though from the reverse point of – if we do not press for a referendum to get us out of the EU, that body will exert ever more control on a broken up England and there will be no way back. A referendum NO can produce a number of results, BW, and we could argue these for days. A YES vote or no referendum at all hands England to the EU to be administered by region, with a lame duck Westminster giving the semblance of a parliament until it is downgraded to the assembly for London region. Read the EU’s own material on this.
You say, BW and I can understand what you’re saying:
My own view is that England must first be recognised as a sovereign nation
Yes – to sign up to get the English MPs to recognize England and why not? Use the AA mechanisms to do just that. You are free to word it as you wish – we only give guidelines for those who are not sure how they wish to say it. AA by no means dictates. I’d love to see the English nationalists use the AA mechanisms for their own purposes – go for it guys.
However, back to your comment, BW:
Recognized by whom? Certainly not by Europe. The word “first” you use is dangerous because it lulls people into a sense of the Scottish 45 – a dream for the future. We’re not talking dreams here. The EU has never handed back any powers to the sovereign nations nor has it deviated from its course in respect to us – breaking up England into its regions to administer federally.
That is the EU course and in that there is no England whatsoever.
With the greatest respect, BW, all your steps are right but they are not in the right order. First step, before anything else at all, is the referendum because from it, all else flows. The recognition by English MPs will not come whilst the EU dictates to Brown and Cameron and form them to CCHQ and from there to deselection threats to MPs.
I agree totally that the English MPs must do this but they won’t while the deselection threat hangs over them. A call for a referendum though is a sideways way they can go and will achieve the same thing. And don’t forget – we’re asking for a pledge, not just a few words.
Referendum – anything can happen. No referendum – no more England. It is THAT stark, BW.
I’m not really disagreeing with you, James. I was considering voting Lib Dem at the election while they were still committed to an EU referendum; but since they abandoned that promise so venally after Lisbon was ratified, I’m definitely not going to support them. I’ll end up voting UKIP, I think, simply to send the clear message that we’re entitled to a referendum.
There are many ways of communicating to politicians that we demand a referendum, and I wish you well with the Albion Alliance. I think the Tories are going to be punished for dropping their promise to hold a referendum on Lisbon, which should clearly have been transmuted into a referendum on EU membership altogether after Lisbon was ratified. That could be the difference between their holding an outright majority and a hung parliament. And then that will strengthen the hand of the euro-sceptics.
I think you have to bear in mind that the Witanagemot Club was formed for bloggers who support an English parliament, irrespective of their other political views. It’s a single issue group.
Now I know that you believe that the existence of the EU, or at least the UK’s membership of it, prevents an English parliament coming into being. This has been UKIP’s argument for years. I happen to disagree, and have been doing so for years. Yes, the EU is an issue. No, the EU does not prevent an English parliament.
Does the Albion Alliance support an English Parliament? Does UKIP? The Libertarian Party are yet to declare for an EP, despite Chris Mounsey and Ian-Parker Joseph’s views on the matter.
Bearing all the above in mind, I think it is slightly unfair of you to keep flogging this horse. It has to be up to the individual members of the group to decide on issues such as this. You know my opinion – I am opposed to EU membership as it is presently constituted, and would vote to get us out in any referendum.
BW, thank you. We want the same thing. Toque came in just now and he wants and I want and we all want the same thing. We’re not arguing with each other over that in the least.
It’s just the means. Your best wishes are much appreciated but if you were to pull out your local MP’s and PPC’s details from our candidate database and write to them, asking for the concept of England to be recognized and whether they will press for a referendum on England leaving the EU, it gives a mechanism by which they can get past their whips and actually mean something with their promises.
The one with the best response to you – the voter in that constituency, gets your vote.
As you say, there are many ways and AA is but one of them. We provide some tools you can use, that’s all and the whole business of pledging is for one purpose – to get people to stick to their word. Not one of the AA cares about any sort of empire building – I personally don’t give a toss about that but only about getting MPs to pledge to give us that elusive referendum.
Love your site, by the way.
By the very fact that Brussels administers the nine regions as regions and has no concept of England for the very good reason that it does not want a strong England, it prevents an English parliament. The trouble is that this will become apparent by 2012 and by then it will be too late.
Leaving that aside, Toque, Witanagemot is a one issue group, yes – an English Parliament. How is that to be achieved? What are the nuts and bolts? I would suggest that if every Witanagemot member were to pull out the MP and PPC details for his constituency and write to those people – would you, the candidate, support an English parliament – and at the same time, the member signs the English Free Press petition, then it all helps get us there.
We could argue the point for hours but pushing the EU referendum certainly doesn’t harm the chances of an English Parliament – it does the opposite. So why not support it? We’re only asking for a referendum, for a voice.
But Toque, we’re not going to get it by dreaming. We ahve to take it directly to the candidates and look at the best time for that – when they are at their most vulnerable before the general election. The window of opportunity will close after that. Hence the angst on our parts to get going now.
You say it is up to the individual members. Of course it is – is anyone saying otherwise? So let’s present it to the individual members so that they can decide for themselves but let’s also get the facts straight on this.
Yes, I know you would vote to have us out, Toque but we need to make it happen. The English Free Press petition and all your efforts are great and I’m hoping the English reading this will go over and join up now but we also need to directly contact the MPs. AA has tools if you wish to do that.
So suggest it. There’s nothing to stop every Witanagemot member doing this. I’m not however going to sign the entire Witanagemot Club up to the Albion Alliance because – despite what you say – it’s a single issue campaign and the EU does not not prevent an English parliament, irrespective of its ideas about regional subsidiarity as opposed to national sovereignty. In respect of how we want to govern England we are still sovereign and likely to remain so for the foreseeable future.
I will write to Lewes’ PPC and ask them to support AA.
Toque, that’s much appreciated about Lewes PPCs. If anyone understands what you’re saying about members deciding, it’s us. AA far more than clubs and organizations stands or falls by what its supporters actually do. We are not a club, not a party, we have no blogroll or members. We just provide tools, that’s all, for supporters to use if they wish. We are completely in the hands of the supporters.
Re the English sovereignty – all you say I agree with but we’re arguing cross-purposes. Of course we are technically sovereign and by right as well – the people’s right is enshrined in Acts. However, you and I also know it does not operate this way and Brussels money [which is our money given back to us in the way it wants] is earmarked regionally and carries a political agenda.
So many bloggers, e.g. Wat Tyler, have blogged on the money side. The TPA knows all about this. It’s not a case of what’s legal and legitimate – it’s what they are actually doing. The next parliament is at the beginning, post-Irish Lisbon 2, of the gradual handing over of power. The foreign policy has already gone, Guthrum wrote on the tax power going by degrees – these salami tactics are all written up in EU minutes.
And the cost! The cost as we’re teetering on the brink of a second recession is unaffordable.
You say the EU cannot prevent an English Parliament. Not on paper and not in right and we’re all damned if they’re going to succeed. But in practice, they very much call the tune. And since when has “right” come into the way Westminster is sleeping with the EU under Brown and Cameron?
So you’re strongly putting a point no one’s disagreeing with – in technical terms, yes. In practical terms, the rules are being broken, the unelected are influencing policy and are dotted through the community, at regional level, e.g. the south-west where they’re stacked with CP graduates whose motto is “leading beyond authority”. CP are funded by our parliament.
There are two things here – what is right and then the realpolitik. There are two ways the two can be reconciled. The first is that the people take to the streets. The second is that PPCs are pressured to pledge to heed the words of their constituents and support a PMB for a referendum. Some have started to do that. This latter is direct action without violence.
I need to think out how to phrase what to say to the English Free Press members so that it doesn’t rabbit on for paragraphs.
Thank you very much for taking the time to come in and reply to this post.
But why no Cornwall?
Taking the scissors to the Tamar border is indeed presumptious. As it stands, Cornwall is a county in England – it is not a Catalonia nor is it a Quebec. By making the judgement that Cornwall is somehow separate, the issue of our national integrity gets cloudy – and reinforces the Euro and Brit propaganda that England is not so much a country but an amorphous blobbage of separates..
The priority is to get England once again recognised as one country under one authority, get our parliament back and our rights – then address the issues – our issues. And if those include greater autonomy for Cornwall or anywhere else in England then it can be addressed through the authority of an English Parliament, along with EU membership, UK membership, etc, etc.
Our imperative is getting back our national authority, first from the UK – then if we deem it so to be, from Brussels also.
Alfie, all other things aside, there is no way to get it back from the UK. All three major parties have sold out to Brussels and there is no one to get that power back. There are only two options – either take to the streets or have this last shot at getting the MPs to give it back but the only way to do that is to first get to them and the only way to do that is to write and demand they give it. Then you need a UK wide system of publicity to list those who will not give it back.
How else do you see it happening? It’s all well and good to say “our imperative is”. Yes, you’re right – it is.
But how?
The way Albion Alliance is doing it may not work in the end but it sure as hell will if people get behind the call to write to each and every MP – hundreds and thousands writing and writing and writing to PPCs, local news outlets and the like. No one in Westminster is interested in giving anything back without a good reason.
Taking the scissors to the Tamar border is indeed presumptious. As it stands, Cornwall is a county in England
No technically it is a Duchy as well, and there within lies the issue regarding Cornish sovereignty – as with Brittany in France. I’m happy to support a solution to the Cornish issue and think us English Nats and Cornish Nats can do this, as long as the debate doesn’t get bogged down in pathetic name calling, historical revisionism and infighting.
I’m in agreement with Toque as well regarding the EU issue. I think English Nats need to start taking a sensible view on the EU and one that hasn’t been clouded by the conspiracy nutters (which UKIP seems to attract) and a lack of knowledge of how things actually work in the EU.
With all due respect, this unfortunately shows your lack of knowledge of our relationship with the EU as the EU itself sees it standing. This is far more than “conspiracy nutters”. From the TPA to the Tories to many others out there, the story is the same – the EU is costing us big but far more than that, the EU is working to an agenda which they openly state themselves.
It can’t be helped if people refuse to look at that or to read the EU’s own material but it is an enormous problem for the UK and the Witanagemot desire for an English Parliament will never happen whilst the EU holds all the legal cards.
This is Blair/Brown’s legacy they leave in May.
[...] … how, in the light of the legal maze we are caught up in? Then we get this sort of thing for having the temerity to raise this issue: I think English Nats need to start taking a sensible [...]